Curse

Servant of Kali · Aug 11, 2009, 06:36 PM // 18:36

For those who have played necromancers a lot;

How fun would you say necro is compared to other professions? (this is subjective, yes)

How versatile would you say it is? Sure soul reaping gives nice opportunities, but in practice, does it really?

Can human necro MM be better than Hero MM? Hero MM can micromanage minions etc etc, so what exactly can human MM contribute more over Hero MM?

pug_ster · Aug 11, 2009, 06:58 PM // 18:58

I would say that hero mm's are relatively good at managing themselves and they are better than human ones as they are especially good at using Death Nova and putrid bile. Most people who play necro's usually play ss nowadays.

kupp · Aug 11, 2009, 07:05 PM // 19:05

I have both and necro is my secondary character, honestly it's fun but it gets boring fast. I always end up going back to my warrior. Though that could be because I don't really like casters in general.

Shursh · Aug 11, 2009, 07:17 PM // 19:17

necros are awesome for PvE - you can do pretty much anything: damage, curses, party support, heal, Orders, MM, spike, etc. it's one of the most versatile classes in the game.

spiteful spirit gets pretty boring tbh (and there are arguably MUCH better options).

i would suggest trying an AP-MoP nuker, or MMing with Order of Undeath (unless you want to run a jagged bones hero), or even running a Word of Healing bar (you never run out of energy).

Scott Ware · Aug 11, 2009, 07:17 PM // 19:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by pug_ster

I would say that hero mm's are relatively good at managing themselves and they are better than human ones as they are especially good at using Death Nova and putrid bile. Most people who play necro's usually play ss nowadays.

The only thing I would agree with in this statement is that hero mm's are better at using Death Nova. Everything else is so totally wrong (of course, in my opinion).

1) Human MM's can be quite capable of running very effective builds with OoU - Far better than a hero does. This is not subjective and has been discussed ad nauseum. I would think everyone that has any experience with a necro will agree to this. If you're running an MM build that focuses on blowing them up, yes heroes are better.

2) I can't remember the last time I played SS. I run so many different builds. IV + MoP, AP caller, OoU MM, Bip, etc, etc. I haven't run across anyone running SS outside of specific team builds (specifically speed clears) in a very long time.

3) This post is very misleading in light of one of the op's questions:

Quote:

How versatile would you say it is? Sure soul reaping gives nice opportunities, but in practice, does it really?

Necro's are (arguably) the most versatile class in the game. Necro's can heal better than rits, provide extensive AoE damage, solo, provide heavy protection (through minions), etc. And Soul Reaping is the best primary attribute in the game. Hands down.

Now, on to the subjective part. Yes, necro can be a blast to play with practice, or can be very frustrating for a new person to the class. The damage a necro does at low levels, is minimal at best. But later in the game, can be quite devastating. I enjoy necro far better than any class I've played. But that's just me.

And to touch on your last question again, what can a human mm contribute more than a hero mm?, Take your OoU build, bring Barbs/MoP and watch the carnage. No hero can do that (without micromanaging).

upier · Aug 11, 2009, 07:29 PM // 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by kupp

I have both and necro is my secondary character, honestly it's fun but it gets boring fast.

I love casters, but necros still get boring really fast.
They do have Barbs though ...
*daydreams*

TalanRoarer · Aug 11, 2009, 07:33 PM // 19:33

Imo, Necromancers are by far the most versatile proffession in the game.

Soul Reaping gives a Necro the ability to do pretty much anything...
At the end of the day you should play the class you enjoy the most, I like Necromancers but play warrior.

Though there are several Necroancer builds suited for PvE, MoP Nuker is by far the most fun.

FireWhale · Aug 11, 2009, 07:35 PM // 19:35

I've played all classes except paragon (currently don't have a dervish either but I did have one for an extended period. also my bro mains a paragon) and this is my opinion on necromancers:

Fun, but not my style. First...death magic. In terms of MM, I've tried all variations but I just cannot micro death nova very well. That is a great source of damage for hero MM. However, for pretty much every other death magic skill, I can micro it better than a hero, so I wouldn't say a human MM is bad by any means. It can also prioritize spells in a much more useful manner, especially when combined with curses. In comparison, I find my Rt as spirit spammer to be more fun for doing damage, as there is much less effort required to maintain a large offensive force. Defensively, the human MM is definitely superior though. I think MM is the only death magic build, save for discord, but as a human I think Necrosis is better.

In terms of blood, I find blood unappealing. I've never played BiP or Orders as I rarely go in all-human teams, but they provide very powerful support so I can't really knock it.

In terms of curses, there is a lot of damage potential. However, it requires a good understanding of enemies as well as a feel for the fight's progression. If you randomly cast curse after curse you'll see very little damage. Curse effectively and you'll do very respectable damage. In HM, the damage drastically increases. Also, I find enfeebling blood to be very useful in HM. Given the choice between AP and SS, I would take SS any day. Imo, another MoP is not worth the versatility of SS and I never have energy problems with soul reaping.

Also, I would never run discord. It minimizes the human element and focuses on heroes, but that's what makes it work.

And yeah, soul reaping is like an endless battery, even after the nerf.

However, Versatility is kind of limited Your spells from other classes are going to be slightly underpowered. With Selfless spirit's buff, I think both Rt's and Mo healers are better. I mean, the necro CAN cast fulfill roles of the other casting classes due to the inherent energy management, but in a slightly less effective way. In terms of any physical classes, you can forget about it.

Overall, I think being a necro will let you be some things no other class can be, but at the same time, it's not an "ultimate" class either. In other words, perfectly balanced against other classes. Pretty much all of them are, except for those darn sins.

Also, I would like to address Scott Ware's post. I don't think, subjectively, Necro's heal better than Rt's anymore. And subjectively, most primary attributes cannot be compared. Critical strikes, fast casting, leadership, etc. all of them are unique in their own way. The rest of the post is good, though and comes from knowledgeable necro fan.

TalanRoarer · Aug 11, 2009, 07:40 PM // 19:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by FireWhale

Given the choice between AP and SS, I would take SS any day. Imo, another MoP is not worth the versatility of SS and I never have energy problems with soul reaping.

The idea around using AP with MoP is not for energy problems, a good MoP nuker can outdamage SS easily. Honestly stick spears on your heroes, call effectively and you will soon change your mind.

Servant of Kali · Aug 11, 2009, 07:49 PM // 19:49

What is OoV? I thought it's Order of the Vampire but doesn't make much sense when talking about MMs. : >

Quote:

Yes, necro can be a blast to play with practice, or can be very frustrating for a new person to the class.

Well, I've no problem with skill. I've played all classes in PvP and am familiar with them. Besides, being mostly a mesmer player I don't need much time to learn new tricks

Still, it's very difficult for me to evaluate some aspects of PvE gameplay. I've Dervish, Mesmer and Monk in PvE, each with very different playstyle I guess. I also had Ranger and Ritualist but deleted both.

I've been considering making a necromancer, but was thinking what's the point if hero does MMing better, and if I want to play pure hexing I've mesmer for that.

This means that basically I'm looking at "what is fun to do with necro, that I can't with monk/mesmer/dervish". Minions are one thing, BiP is another (but I'm not a huge fan of it - boredom)..

ps: One thing to note - I would most likely have necro heroes as well. So, they could cast Death Nova on my minions (they would right?) if I had them. That downside can thus be eliminated. But the question still is - what can I add as a player over heroes. I see no overpowered necro-related pve skills (necrosis is ok..) as with some other professions. But I'm not looking strictly at power.

I dunno... then again if all I'm going to do is MMing I'm going to get bored fast.

FireWhale · Aug 11, 2009, 07:54 PM // 19:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by BenC777

The idea around using AP with MoP is not for energy problems, a good MoP nuker can outdamage SS easily. Honestly stick spears on your heroes, call effectively and you will soon change your mind.

I understand your reasoning and will admit the damage potential. Again, I just think SS is more versatile and subjectively, better.

Servant of Kali, just note that both are viable.

TalanRoarer · Aug 11, 2009, 07:55 PM // 19:55

MMing is one of many options you have.. I suggest Ebsoh + OoU for some nice damage on that one.

But seriously... this build is insane in high end PvE.
http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:N/A_Mark_of_Pain_Nuker.

If you do decide to look into that build, try Reckless Haste, By Ural's Hammer and/or Mindbender.

FireWhale · Aug 11, 2009, 08:03 PM // 20:03

A necromancer can pretty much be a better curse-user and MM than a dervish/mesmer/paragon. A better discord caller too, I think. If you go full curses, you'll probably see a similar damage output as with VoR/Empathy/CoP. They are quite different, but out of all the other builds, the most similar. MoP/AP probably has a much higher damage, especially with assassin. If you go hybrid MM/curses...I don't know if you'd have enough slots to fit all the good skills that are available. Either way, the necro can play around with death and curses a lot more effectively than any other class. Runes help a lot in this regard, but soul reaping is key in powering them.

Scott Ware · Aug 11, 2009, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

What is OoV? I thought it's Order of the Vampire but doesn't make much sense when talking about MMs. : >

Yeah, sorry about that. I meant OoU (Order of Undeath). Typed OoV. I corrected this prior to your post.

TalanRoarer · Aug 11, 2009, 08:08 PM // 20:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by FireWhale

I understand your reasoning and will admit the damage potential. Again, I just think SS is more versatile and subjectively, better.

Um, ok I suppose we're all entilted to our own opinions, but I can't really let that go.

Surely a bar with only 4 Nailed on slots that recharge everytime you kill something is more versatile.

That gives you 4 slots, to play ANY assassin/necro/pve skills that you want to, and use them everytime you kill an enemy, which makes the recharge time on those skills irrelvant. Gotta say, I love watching 6/7 EV Sins running about the place.

So what i ask is, How is SS better than MoP nuker?

_Nihilist_ · Aug 11, 2009, 09:44 PM // 21:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by BenC777

So what i ask is, How is SS better than MoP nuker?

For general PvE play, it's not. For specific farming, it is.

FireWhale, it's not subjective at all. It's completely objective. AP+MoP does so much more damage than SS or Arcane Echo+SS. It has built-in aggro control with EVAS, which is another source of Physical damage to trigger both Barbs and MoP. You can't increase the stupid factor of the enemy AI (except for tossing SS+Reckless Haste on Physicals - RH does jack to casters, really), but you can increase both the amount and frequency of Physical damage triggers from your team, which is the ultimate reason why AP+MoP is better than any type of SS build.

Moloch Vein has a spot-on assessment of why Reactive Hexing is sub-par. SS is one of the best examples of a Reactive Hex - MoP is an Active Hex, and yes, Active Hexes far outshine Reactive Hexes.

Xenomortis · Aug 11, 2009, 09:51 PM // 21:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

How versatile would you say it is? Sure soul reaping gives nice opportunities, but in practice, does it really?

Can human necro MM be better than Hero MM? Hero MM can micromanage minions etc etc, so what exactly can human MM contribute more over Hero MM?

Necros are reasonably versatile. They have strong options with Death and Curses, can support physicals with Blood and a secondary and Soul Reaping provides very strong energy management in a PvE setting, meaning you seldom need to bring extra energy management skills.

With regards to MMing, humans can do it better. This is largely because a human can run Order of Undeath effectively (it isn't great with a hero) and are better at managing their energy when keeping up 7 fiends and 3 vamp horrors. The downside is that the build has less room for utility functions than other MM builds.

As for the old SS argument, we've had enough of those in the Necro forum, so just look through some old threads.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FireWhale

I just think SS is more versatile and subjectively, better.

Subjectively? How is it subjectively better? I don't even know what you mean by that.
It certainly isn't better when viewed objectively.

Graveheart · Aug 11, 2009, 10:07 PM // 22:07

Well i been a necromancer all my life as a gw player,and i did try the other classes.
A necromancer's soulreaping is what makes you keep going in big fights,without looking for energy management.
It isnt what it was 2 years ago when it got nerfed,but still its good enough.
Versatility by default,well for one necromancers are a class that can lessen enemy physical attack output.
Also can take out specific targets that can be annoying for the rest of the party (example a sin porting around,or shiro going all wild?a warrior maybe?)with an emphasis to physical attackers.
Minnionmancing is mostly for body blocking enemy groups,and to give space to casters.
The fact that minnions do dmg and that now with the +2 extra can do it better and survive longer is an extra.
Blood magic is the utility build key point along with spoil victor.
Well spells and life stealing dont do as well as other builds,but still if people knew in which well to stand,it would be good to them.

Closing note is,necromancers are versatile yes,but about a big part of the game will be morons who dont have a clue trying to force builds on you or claim that a hero is better.
In a funny way heros are as far reactions and spreading death nova to minions,and mesmer heros can interupt everything.
But theyr A.I. cant comprehend and calculate dangers or even move out of the way of an incoming patrol.

Thats just it,in my own little humble oppinion

FireWhale · Aug 11, 2009, 11:25 PM // 23:25

subjective means in my opinion. If I wanted some caster way over by himself to just feel some hurt while I call other targets, I can use SS. you can't do that with MoP. That alone qualifies my opinion. I won't go into any objective details on that scenario since this thread is not for that. And especially since we're trying to portray the necro as a versatile class, let's leave it at that, okay?

ps. I even went out and tried AP+MoP. Even equipped spears on my heroes and all. Things died, sure, but things died at about the same rate: fast.

One of the things I didn't really get about the build was that MoP deals damage to adjacents, right? Well, one cast/AP later all the clumped foes were kind of dead, so who do I use the chain on next? All I really got out of AP was more EVA's.

Xenomortis · Aug 11, 2009, 11:40 PM // 23:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by FireWhale

subjective means in my opinion. If I wanted some caster way over by himself to just feel some hurt while I call other targets, I can use SS. you can't do that with MoP.

You've wasted your elite to deal some low, but steady damage to a caster by himself?
With an AP-MoP build, you are augmenting the firepower of your physicals by a considerable amount. That is its purpose.
Whilst SS can be used to hurt more things, that doesn't make it better - the damage it deals is pitiful in comparison.